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[Music]

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hello and welcome to episode number 68

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of the point of convergence podcast as

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always i am your host exo academian

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for those who look at the ufo phenomenon

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as primarily a nuts and bolts enterprise

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elements of this enigma that veer into

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the domains of the spiritual and the

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paranormal are often seen as superfluous

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and distracting to the main point of the

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exercise

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from the point of view of traditional

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nuts and bolts ufologists like this the

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central point is that some kind of

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biologically based alien intelligence is

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here in our midst buzzing in and around

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our skies and apparently our most

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supposedly secure airspace for that

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matter with impunity

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from this perspective the focus and the

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fascination lies in the sophisticated

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nature of the technology on display

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and in the earthly presence of

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apparently bipedal alien life forms

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interestingly and i would suggest

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tellingly researchers in a different

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field that of hauntology have a similar

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tunnel vision focus

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for traditional hauntologists the

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assumption is often that deceased human

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beings are responsible for much of the

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paranormal experiences people report

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having

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and when the dead are not responsible

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the aim often turns towards the

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so-called spirit realm where angels and

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demons reside

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for someone with only a cursory

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understanding of the two fields just

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described namely ufology and hauntology

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the assumption is largely that these are

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distinct and unrelated fields

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the first has to do with

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extraterrestrials arriving from zeta

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reticuli or some other location

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and the second has to do with ancestors

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who refuse to fade fully into the domain

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of the afterlife

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and with spiritual entities who are

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meddling in the affairs of human beings

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supposedly with the hopes of determining

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the ultimate destiny of human souls

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again this is how these matters appear

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to someone with only a shallow

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understanding of these two fields with a

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correspondingly shallow understanding of

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the data arising in the literature of

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these two fields

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for those who are intimately familiar

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with the full breadth of the data

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however the overlap between these two

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fields is startling

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so much so in fact that those who are

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really attempting to look at these

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matters with objective eyes

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see that this is all part of some

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overarching category of inquiry

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why do mysterious balls of light often

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referred to as orbs often show up both

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in cases ascribed to ufology and

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hauntology

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why do ufos and aliens sometimes appear

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right alongside deceased human beings

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these overlapping data points seemingly

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demand we step back and look at this

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from a more overarching perspective

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beyond these similarities another

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fascinating and for some disturbing data

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point is shared by both ufology and

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ontology

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here i speak of the so-called hitchhiker

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effect where human beings seem to be

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followed by entities of various forms

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after having had encounters of either

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ghosts and or spirits or aliens

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alongside sightings of ufos

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startlingly not only do these entities

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and phenomena follow people who've had

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such encounters but they are often

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reported to spread almost like a virus

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of some sort into the lives of people

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who simply know the person initially

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afflicted

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in other words just knowing someone

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who's had an anomalous encounter like we

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just discussed is enough to trigger a

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similar experience of the paranormal

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even when the matter was never actually

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discussed at all by either party

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and this hitchhiker phenomena can then

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carry on in the lives of such

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individuals for months even years

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these overlapping data points of course

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raise profound questions

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who then are these entities appearing in

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both ufology and hauntology

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have we mistook them for the wrong types

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merely because our categories are based

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more on folklore and wishful thinking

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than in reality

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and what of us who are we in other words

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what are we really composed of that

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would allow such seemingly energetic

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life forms and phenomena to attach to us

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and ultimately what do these revelations

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suggest in terms of an overarching

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metaphysical understanding of reality

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itself

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these perplexing astonishing and

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mind-bending matters are the focus of

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this the 68th episode of the point of

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[Music]

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to begin this podcast we should make

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note that we touched on these kinds of

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matters before in our two-part episode

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covering the book skinwalkers at the

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pentagon an insider's account of the

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secret government ufo program by james

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lakatsky colm kelleher and george knapp

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today we're going to touch on these

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matters again and we're going to dive

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into a new article that calm kelleher

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has published titled the pentagon secret

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ufo program the hitchhiker effect and

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models of contagion and he wrote this

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for edge science magazine

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now this covers much of the highlights

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of the program that he was involved with

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and it touches on the hitchhiker effect

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in some detail and we will jump off

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right there

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according from this article

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in september 2008 the defense

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intelligence agency initiated a 22

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million two-year contract with bigelow

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aerospace advanced studies bas

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to scientifically study ufos and their

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effects on humans and so began one of

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the most controversial programs in the

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history of the united states government

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the program was named advanced aerospace

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weapon system applications program asap

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and was kept secret from the public

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until the new york times broke the story

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in december 2017

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cooper blumenthal and keane 2017.

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dia senior analyst james t lutkatsky was

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the primary creator of awesapp

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within five months of the osap start

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date in 2008 a team of 50 phd and

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master's level scientists technicians

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engineers analysts military intelligence

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professionals program managers and

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security officers had been recruited

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hired and were being assigned security

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clearances

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during the program's 24 months duration

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plus a three-month no-cost extension

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bass delivered over 100 technical

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reports on different aspects of ufo

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performance as well as reports

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describing medical psychological and

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physiological effects of ufos and

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associated phenomena unquote

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so that's key this was an official

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program even though it didn't break into

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the public until 2017 with the famous

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new york times article but we should

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note here that not only do they study

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ufos but also the medical psychological

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and physiological effects of ufos

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and their associated phenomena so this

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is where the paranormal aspect comes in

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again if this was a more widespread

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program was known by more people likely

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they would have had a lot of flack and

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they would not have been able to extend

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the scope to that degree

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to include an investigation of

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paranormal effects that seemed to

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co-arise with ufos

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but they had already known from previous

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studies with bigelow's group that this

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is what tended to happen and so that was

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the focus here and this was why this was

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such an important study and we have such

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rich data to now refer to

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okay enough of the broad strokes let's

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jump into the hitchhiker effects

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specifically and this first arose when

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they were studying at skinwalker ranch

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quoting again from the article quote

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one area of investigation initiated by

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asap involved in the infamous skinwalker

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ranch where multiple ufo sightings had

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taken place over decades as well as a

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plethora of anomalies that included

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cattle mutilations sightings of orbs of

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different colors

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discarded entities and poltergeist

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activity

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shortly after the assap investigations

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began the dia deployed several military

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personnel on-site visits to skinwalker

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ranch to corroborate and evaluate

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earlier reports of anomalous phenomena

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likatsky himself had experienced a

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profound anomaly on the ranch in 2007.

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this experience in fact was a

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significant instigation for the

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formation of the awsap bass program

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all five dia personnel deployed to the

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ranch experienced profound anomalies

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while on the property and more

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importantly all five brought something

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home with them the leader of these five

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military personnel was a naval

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intelligence officer whom we gave the

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pseudonym jonathan axelrod in our book

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this is the book by lakotsky kelleher

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and knapp skinwalkers at the pentagon

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quoting again from the article axelrod

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was an accomplished engineer who would

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eventually be promoted to the rank of

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two-star admiral within naval

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intelligence and who possessed top

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secret sensitive compartmented

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information tssci

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clearances at the time of his ranch

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visit in july 2009

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axelrod accompanied by jim costigan and

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dave wilson encountered an anomaly on

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the ranch that caused a lot of fear in

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all three men but little did they know

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that this incident was only the

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beginning of his troubles within a month

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of arriving back home in virginia a

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plethora of paranormal phenomena

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suddenly erupted in axelrod's home

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for several years following his july

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2009 and subsequent trips to the ranch

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axelrod's wife and teenage children were

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subjected to nightmarish

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dog men appearing in their backyard to

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blue red yellow and white orbs routinely

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floating through the home and in the

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yard to black shadow people standing

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over their beds when they awoke

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and to a relentless barrage of loud

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unexplained footsteps walking up and

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down the stairs of their house

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unquote

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so a couple of points to make note of

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there number one it was the highly

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ranked military personnel that were sent

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to the ranch to corroborate earlier

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investigations and findings who ended up

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having these encounters and then all

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five took something home with them all

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five experienced the hitchhiker

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phenomenon in other words

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now right away we should point out here

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that these are military personnel and

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some people who really believe that the

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reflective nature of the phenomenon is

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front and center will say that they

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ended up having negative encounters

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frightening encounters because these

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people were military personnel perhaps

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therefore coming with an aggressive

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militaristic kind of perspective and

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this ended up being reflected back to

283
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them in what they ended up encountering

284
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and interestingly that notion is not

285
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just superstitious folklore this was

286
00:11:16,630 --> 00:11:14,959
actually a finding that's noted later in

287
00:11:19,110 --> 00:11:16,640
this very article

288
00:11:21,350 --> 00:11:19,120
so getting back to the article quote the

289
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axelrod teenagers endured some very

290
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scary episodes in their bedrooms

291
00:11:28,069 --> 00:11:26,000
paul the younger teenager claims to have

292
00:11:30,470 --> 00:11:28,079
been attacked by blue and red orbs in

293
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his bedroom on the night of february 7

294
00:11:33,670 --> 00:11:32,000
2011

295
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but they kept quiet about their strange

296
00:11:38,069 --> 00:11:36,480
experiences so imagine paul's shock when

297
00:11:41,190 --> 00:11:38,079
he was approached by one of his high

298
00:11:43,269 --> 00:11:41,200
school friends in 2011 who told him that

299
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on the previous night he had looked out

300
00:11:47,509 --> 00:11:45,200
his bedroom window and had witnessed a

301
00:11:50,310 --> 00:11:47,519
large wolf-like creature standing

302
00:11:52,310 --> 00:11:50,320
outside his bedroom looking in at him

303
00:11:54,310 --> 00:11:52,320
a few weeks later another friend told

304
00:11:56,470 --> 00:11:54,320
paul of seeing strange blue lights

305
00:11:58,389 --> 00:11:56,480
flying around his backyard

306
00:12:00,710 --> 00:11:58,399
these revelations by the two friends

307
00:12:02,949 --> 00:12:00,720
came without prompting from paul

308
00:12:05,829 --> 00:12:02,959
in other words they cannot be dismissed

309
00:12:07,829 --> 00:12:05,839
as me too phenomena the experiences by

310
00:12:10,550 --> 00:12:07,839
paul's school friends suggest the

311
00:12:13,910 --> 00:12:10,560
perception of bizarre creatures and blue

312
00:12:15,670 --> 00:12:13,920
orbs was transferable beyond the axelrod

313
00:12:17,829 --> 00:12:15,680
family home and out into the

314
00:12:19,829 --> 00:12:17,839
neighborhood it's unlikely that these

315
00:12:21,910 --> 00:12:19,839
events could be explained as a series of

316
00:12:24,389 --> 00:12:21,920
improbable coincidences

317
00:12:26,310 --> 00:12:24,399
likewise since the axelrod children were

318
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:26,320
very reticent in discussing these

319
00:12:30,389 --> 00:12:28,079
experiences outside their immediate

320
00:12:32,870 --> 00:12:30,399
family the incidents with their school

321
00:12:35,269 --> 00:12:32,880
friends cannot be dismissed as pure

322
00:12:36,949 --> 00:12:35,279
mimicry unquote

323
00:12:38,790 --> 00:12:36,959
so let's make this point really clear

324
00:12:41,509 --> 00:12:38,800
because this is essential

325
00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:41,519
these boys did not talk to their friends

326
00:12:45,430 --> 00:12:43,200
about what they were experiencing they

327
00:12:47,350 --> 00:12:45,440
kept it to themselves and yet these

328
00:12:49,030 --> 00:12:47,360
friends came to them and talked about

329
00:12:51,190 --> 00:12:49,040
experiences they were having right

330
00:12:53,990 --> 00:12:51,200
around the same time

331
00:12:56,389 --> 00:12:54,000
so here kelleher wonders if perhaps this

332
00:12:58,310 --> 00:12:56,399
phenomena is able to extend into the

333
00:13:00,550 --> 00:12:58,320
neighborhood so to speak

334
00:13:03,590 --> 00:13:00,560
i wonder if it's not so much a question

335
00:13:05,829 --> 00:13:03,600
of space and moving into the area as it

336
00:13:08,230 --> 00:13:05,839
is a kind of psychic connection between

337
00:13:09,990 --> 00:13:08,240
these boys and their friends that's what

338
00:13:11,990 --> 00:13:10,000
i would tend to suggest might be the

339
00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:12,000
case and i think there's other evidence

340
00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:14,800
that would support that kind of notion

341
00:13:19,590 --> 00:13:17,120
getting back to the article again quote

342
00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:19,600
the axelrod family also suffered health

343
00:13:23,670 --> 00:13:21,360
effects with the wife suffering

344
00:13:25,350 --> 00:13:23,680
flare-ups of systemic lupus and

345
00:13:27,990 --> 00:13:25,360
raynaud's disease

346
00:13:30,230 --> 00:13:28,000
both axelrod teenagers also endured

347
00:13:32,949 --> 00:13:30,240
intense flu-like symptoms at different

348
00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:32,959
times following anomalies in their home

349
00:13:37,269 --> 00:13:34,880
with the most serious medical symptoms

350
00:13:39,509 --> 00:13:37,279
occurring in the younger teenager

351
00:13:41,910 --> 00:13:39,519
and axelrod and his family were certain

352
00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:41,920
that the trigger for this transformation

353
00:13:46,150 --> 00:13:44,800
was his first trip to skinwalker ranch

354
00:13:47,750 --> 00:13:46,160
unquote

355
00:13:49,910 --> 00:13:47,760
so before we carry on with the article

356
00:13:51,990 --> 00:13:49,920
let's stop and make note here that there

357
00:13:54,470 --> 00:13:52,000
were physiological effects and this has

358
00:13:56,230 --> 00:13:54,480
been noted many many times people like

359
00:13:58,230 --> 00:13:56,240
jacques villa and gary nolan have been

360
00:14:00,629 --> 00:13:58,240
studying the physiological effects

361
00:14:03,670 --> 00:14:00,639
specifically on the brain for people who

362
00:14:05,350 --> 00:14:03,680
have encountered anomalous phenomena so

363
00:14:07,189 --> 00:14:05,360
again for those who would suggest that

364
00:14:08,949 --> 00:14:07,199
perhaps people are just having some sort

365
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:08,959
of vision beamed into their

366
00:14:13,430 --> 00:14:11,040
consciousness into their perceptual

367
00:14:16,069 --> 00:14:13,440
apparatus so to speak that wouldn't make

368
00:14:18,069 --> 00:14:16,079
sense of why physiological changes start

369
00:14:20,629 --> 00:14:18,079
happening and that people actually come

370
00:14:23,269 --> 00:14:20,639
down with physical illness as has been

371
00:14:24,629 --> 00:14:23,279
noted and as was just noted in this case

372
00:14:26,150 --> 00:14:24,639
here

373
00:14:27,910 --> 00:14:26,160
and while we're on this point i'd also

374
00:14:30,069 --> 00:14:27,920
like to point out that another person

375
00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:30,079
that brought home the hitchhiker effect

376
00:14:34,629 --> 00:14:32,880
so to speak from skinwalker ranch ended

377
00:14:37,269 --> 00:14:34,639
up having a large and apparently

378
00:14:39,430 --> 00:14:37,279
anomalous creature fly into their car

379
00:14:41,590 --> 00:14:39,440
and actually dent the car so there we

380
00:14:43,030 --> 00:14:41,600
don't just have a consciousness change

381
00:14:45,269 --> 00:14:43,040
in the person and we don't just have

382
00:14:47,430 --> 00:14:45,279
physiological effects but we actually

383
00:14:49,670 --> 00:14:47,440
have things showing up in manifest

384
00:14:51,430 --> 00:14:49,680
reality 3d reality that you can see the

385
00:14:54,069 --> 00:14:51,440
effects of when you look at for instance

386
00:14:55,430 --> 00:14:54,079
this dented car

387
00:14:57,430 --> 00:14:55,440
and i bring these matters to your

388
00:14:58,389 --> 00:14:57,440
attention because these details are

389
00:15:00,710 --> 00:14:58,399
essential

390
00:15:02,870 --> 00:15:00,720
when we later reflect on them in putting

391
00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:02,880
together some overarching meta

392
00:15:07,350 --> 00:15:05,440
perspective on what reality itself is

393
00:15:09,269 --> 00:15:07,360
that would allow these kinds of things

394
00:15:10,790 --> 00:15:09,279
to take place

395
00:15:12,389 --> 00:15:10,800
all right now let's jump back into the

396
00:15:14,389 --> 00:15:12,399
article quote

397
00:15:16,350 --> 00:15:14,399
this feeling of bringing something home

398
00:15:19,350 --> 00:15:16,360
and the subsequent person-to-person

399
00:15:21,750 --> 00:15:19,360
transmissibility of paranormal phenomena

400
00:15:24,230 --> 00:15:21,760
some of which can last for years has

401
00:15:27,350 --> 00:15:24,240
been named the hitchhiker effect

402
00:15:30,710 --> 00:15:27,360
in an april 2022 interview skinwalker

403
00:15:32,870 --> 00:15:30,720
ranch research team member dr jim segela

404
00:15:35,189 --> 00:15:32,880
addressed the hitchhiker phenomenon

405
00:15:36,949 --> 00:15:35,199
quote over the past five years it has

406
00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:36,959
been our experience that when people

407
00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:39,360
interact with the phenomena and do not

408
00:15:43,910 --> 00:15:42,000
treat the phenomena with respect

409
00:15:45,749 --> 00:15:43,920
that's when we see a higher rate of the

410
00:15:48,069 --> 00:15:45,759
hitchhiker syndrome

411
00:15:49,829 --> 00:15:48,079
unquote so just want to step away for a

412
00:15:53,110 --> 00:15:49,839
second there and say that this has been

413
00:15:56,230 --> 00:15:53,120
noted multiple times specifically when

414
00:15:58,949 --> 00:15:56,240
people seem to show a disrespect or lack

415
00:16:01,430 --> 00:15:58,959
of consideration that they most often

416
00:16:03,110 --> 00:16:01,440
notice this kind of negative impact

417
00:16:05,110 --> 00:16:03,120
that's what i mentioned earlier this is

418
00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:05,120
not just hearsay this is not just

419
00:16:09,829 --> 00:16:07,440
superstition this seems to be reflected

420
00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:09,839
in the data they had gathered all right

421
00:16:14,069 --> 00:16:12,160
jumping back into the article quote

422
00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:14,079
symptoms experienced by people range

423
00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:16,240
from acute neurological injuries to

424
00:16:20,150 --> 00:16:18,480
chronic blood disease those who have

425
00:16:23,110 --> 00:16:20,160
told us that they have brought home a

426
00:16:25,910 --> 00:16:23,120
souvenir often have some type of illness

427
00:16:27,590 --> 00:16:25,920
as well as family members the data again

428
00:16:29,990 --> 00:16:27,600
comes from years of tracking and

429
00:16:32,230 --> 00:16:30,000
collecting data from those who have come

430
00:16:34,069 --> 00:16:32,240
forward unquote

431
00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:34,079
now in the introduction to today's

432
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:36,240
episode i mentioned that these kinds of

433
00:16:41,509 --> 00:16:38,720
phenomena show up both in cases that are

434
00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:41,519
being researched by hauntologists as

435
00:16:45,990 --> 00:16:43,360
well as cases that are being researched

436
00:16:47,829 --> 00:16:46,000
by ufologists in other words regardless

437
00:16:51,269 --> 00:16:47,839
of what kind of matter you think it is

438
00:16:53,829 --> 00:16:51,279
we find these overlapping phenomena

439
00:16:57,189 --> 00:16:53,839
and now kelleher talks about that in a

440
00:16:58,550 --> 00:16:57,199
specific book by darren ritzen

441
00:17:00,790 --> 00:16:58,560
this book by the way is called

442
00:17:03,269 --> 00:17:00,800
poltergeist parallels and contagion it's

443
00:17:05,669 --> 00:17:03,279
an excellent book i've read it and it

444
00:17:07,669 --> 00:17:05,679
indeed catalogs a lot of the same kind

445
00:17:10,390 --> 00:17:07,679
of phenomena we find in what we thought

446
00:17:12,870 --> 00:17:10,400
was the ufo phenomenon but again darren

447
00:17:15,350 --> 00:17:12,880
ritzen and his colleagues look into

448
00:17:17,750 --> 00:17:15,360
paranormal kinds of encounters

449
00:17:19,510 --> 00:17:17,760
getting back to the book again quote

450
00:17:21,590 --> 00:17:19,520
darren w ritzen's recent

451
00:17:24,549 --> 00:17:21,600
thought-provoking book on poltergeist

452
00:17:26,309 --> 00:17:24,559
and contagion depicts evidence for a

453
00:17:28,309 --> 00:17:26,319
transmissibility phenomenon that

454
00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:28,319
occurred with the infamous south shields

455
00:17:33,029 --> 00:17:31,760
uk poltergeist case of 2006 and

456
00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:33,039
aftermath

457
00:17:37,510 --> 00:17:34,960
the book described in great detail the

458
00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:37,520
disturbing effects of a poltergeist that

459
00:17:43,190 --> 00:17:40,080
infested a home in south shields a small

460
00:17:44,950 --> 00:17:43,200
village in northeast england during 2006

461
00:17:46,310 --> 00:17:44,960
and 2007.

462
00:17:48,789 --> 00:17:46,320
richton and his colleague

463
00:17:50,789 --> 00:17:48,799
co-investigator michael hollowell

464
00:17:52,630 --> 00:17:50,799
recounted many anomalous events the

465
00:17:54,710 --> 00:17:52,640
majority of which overlapped with

466
00:17:58,390 --> 00:17:54,720
phenomena that has been reported on

467
00:18:00,150 --> 00:17:58,400
skinwalker ranch including quote windows

468
00:18:02,710 --> 00:18:00,160
opening and shutting repeatedly

469
00:18:05,190 --> 00:18:02,720
appearances of anomalous black shapes

470
00:18:07,430 --> 00:18:05,200
sounds of footsteps in the loft banging

471
00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:07,440
and thumping noises in the bedrooms

472
00:18:12,230 --> 00:18:09,039
people being pushed violently from

473
00:18:14,630 --> 00:18:12,240
behind discarnate voices objects being

474
00:18:16,870 --> 00:18:14,640
moved around unquote

475
00:18:19,110 --> 00:18:16,880
again back to the article quote ritson

476
00:18:21,270 --> 00:18:19,120
goes on to describe a process whereby

477
00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:21,280
the bizarre antics of the poltergeist

478
00:18:25,510 --> 00:18:22,960
spread outwards from the home of the

479
00:18:27,830 --> 00:18:25,520
principal witnesses and start to affect

480
00:18:29,830 --> 00:18:27,840
others around them extended family

481
00:18:32,710 --> 00:18:29,840
members friends colleagues and

482
00:18:35,590 --> 00:18:32,720
investigators who chose or accidentally

483
00:18:36,789 --> 00:18:35,600
wander into the arena of metaphysical

484
00:18:38,630 --> 00:18:36,799
conflict

485
00:18:40,789 --> 00:18:38,640
like a communicable disease the

486
00:18:43,909 --> 00:18:40,799
poltergeist phenomenon can attach itself

487
00:18:46,230 --> 00:18:43,919
to others richin's words echo the

488
00:18:48,870 --> 00:18:46,240
experiences of the osap investigators on

489
00:18:51,350 --> 00:18:48,880
the skinwalker ranch in detail

490
00:18:53,830 --> 00:18:51,360
through delineating multiple

491
00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:53,840
additional cases darren ritzen provides

492
00:18:58,950 --> 00:18:55,520
further evidence that poltergeist

493
00:19:01,750 --> 00:18:58,960
contagion is quite possibly common and

494
00:19:02,789 --> 00:19:01,760
under-reported unquote

495
00:19:04,950 --> 00:19:02,799
so again

496
00:19:07,990 --> 00:19:04,960
there we have a case of a paranormal

497
00:19:09,750 --> 00:19:08,000
researcher not interested in ufos who is

498
00:19:12,230 --> 00:19:09,760
finding much of this same kind of

499
00:19:14,549 --> 00:19:12,240
phenomena this kind of hitchhiker effect

500
00:19:17,110 --> 00:19:14,559
where it can broadcast and spread into

501
00:19:19,510 --> 00:19:17,120
people who know the initial people who

502
00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:19,520
encountered certain phenomena

503
00:19:24,070 --> 00:19:22,400
very very interesting

504
00:19:25,830 --> 00:19:24,080
now we're going to jump to a case one of

505
00:19:27,350 --> 00:19:25,840
my favorites in fact i know about this

506
00:19:29,029 --> 00:19:27,360
case and i've mentioned it before in a

507
00:19:31,270 --> 00:19:29,039
different podcast so i'm glad that

508
00:19:32,150 --> 00:19:31,280
kelleher brought it up here because once

509
00:19:33,669 --> 00:19:32,160
again

510
00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:33,679
what i want to draw your attention to

511
00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:35,120
here is how

512
00:19:40,150 --> 00:19:37,520
different kinds of situations different

513
00:19:43,510 --> 00:19:40,160
kinds of events that can promote or

514
00:19:45,669 --> 00:19:43,520
provoke this kind of hitchhiker effect

515
00:19:47,909 --> 00:19:45,679
so what really is the underlying

516
00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:47,919
overlapping theme that allows for this

517
00:19:51,669 --> 00:19:49,280
to happen

518
00:19:52,630 --> 00:19:51,679
this specific incident involved uri

519
00:19:54,710 --> 00:19:52,640
geller

520
00:19:57,990 --> 00:19:54,720
quoting again from the article

521
00:20:00,549 --> 00:19:58,000
in 1973 when noted illusionist and

522
00:20:02,549 --> 00:20:00,559
psychokinetic practitioner uri geller

523
00:20:04,870 --> 00:20:02,559
was undergoing a series of tests of his

524
00:20:06,390 --> 00:20:04,880
psychic abilities at the prestigious

525
00:20:09,190 --> 00:20:06,400
lawrence livermore

526
00:20:11,669 --> 00:20:09,200
national laboratory a series of bizarre

527
00:20:13,590 --> 00:20:11,679
events began to unfold both in the lab

528
00:20:15,190 --> 00:20:13,600
itself and at the homes of the

529
00:20:16,230 --> 00:20:15,200
scientists who were conducting the

530
00:20:18,710 --> 00:20:16,240
studies

531
00:20:20,549 --> 00:20:18,720
as with skinwalker ranch visitors many

532
00:20:22,870 --> 00:20:20,559
of the researchers involved had the

533
00:20:25,110 --> 00:20:22,880
highest level of security clearances

534
00:20:27,909 --> 00:20:25,120
including special access program

535
00:20:30,549 --> 00:20:27,919
clearances that necessitated polygraph

536
00:20:33,270 --> 00:20:30,559
testing as well as frequent personality

537
00:20:35,350 --> 00:20:33,280
evaluations unquote and by the way that

538
00:20:37,350 --> 00:20:35,360
last point is key because while kelleher

539
00:20:39,029 --> 00:20:37,360
doesn't mention it here this is how we

540
00:20:40,630 --> 00:20:39,039
later learn about what happened to some

541
00:20:41,830 --> 00:20:40,640
of these people who were there just to

542
00:20:43,510 --> 00:20:41,840
document

543
00:20:45,510 --> 00:20:43,520
uri geller's work so they were just

544
00:20:47,909 --> 00:20:45,520
scientists not interested in ire geller

545
00:20:49,990 --> 00:20:47,919
or psy phenomena or anything like that

546
00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:50,000
they were just straight-laced scientists

547
00:20:53,909 --> 00:20:51,760
there to conduct studies make sure

548
00:20:55,909 --> 00:20:53,919
everything was above board and they

549
00:20:58,149 --> 00:20:55,919
later ended up having hitchhiker

550
00:21:00,390 --> 00:20:58,159
phenomenon effects and they had to

551
00:21:02,630 --> 00:21:00,400
report this as part of their reporting

552
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:02,640
because of their special access program

553
00:21:06,789 --> 00:21:04,080
clearances

554
00:21:08,870 --> 00:21:06,799
okay jumping back into the article quote

555
00:21:11,029 --> 00:21:08,880
author jim schnabel in his engaging

556
00:21:13,270 --> 00:21:11,039
history of american psychic spies

557
00:21:15,590 --> 00:21:13,280
recounts the bizarre series of events

558
00:21:18,549 --> 00:21:15,600
that unfolded at the lab when scientists

559
00:21:20,149 --> 00:21:18,559
began to measure uri geller's alleged

560
00:21:22,710 --> 00:21:20,159
psychic abilities

561
00:21:24,149 --> 00:21:22,720
wright schnabel peter crane and some of

562
00:21:25,990 --> 00:21:24,159
the others in the livermore group

563
00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:26,000
quickly found themselves involved in

564
00:21:30,789 --> 00:21:28,480
more strangeness than they could handle

565
00:21:32,070 --> 00:21:30,799
in the days and weeks that followed they

566
00:21:34,149 --> 00:21:32,080
began to feel that they were

567
00:21:36,950 --> 00:21:34,159
collectively possessed by some kind of

568
00:21:39,190 --> 00:21:36,960
tormenting teasing hallucination

569
00:21:40,630 --> 00:21:39,200
inducing spirit

570
00:21:43,110 --> 00:21:40,640
they all would be in a laboratory

571
00:21:44,710 --> 00:21:43,120
together setting up some equipment or

572
00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:44,720
one of the fellows and his wife and

573
00:21:48,870 --> 00:21:46,640
children would be at home just sitting

574
00:21:51,270 --> 00:21:48,880
around when suddenly there in the middle

575
00:21:54,070 --> 00:21:51,280
of the room would be a weird hovering

576
00:21:56,149 --> 00:21:54,080
almost comically stereotypical image of

577
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:56,159
a flying saucer

578
00:22:00,149 --> 00:21:58,400
on the other hand the flying saucer

579
00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:00,159
wasn't the only form the livermore

580
00:22:04,470 --> 00:22:02,400
visions took there were sometimes

581
00:22:06,789 --> 00:22:04,480
animals fantastic animals from the

582
00:22:08,789 --> 00:22:06,799
ecstatic lore of shamans

583
00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:08,799
such as the large raven-like birds that

584
00:22:12,950 --> 00:22:10,799
were seen traipsing through the yards of

585
00:22:14,470 --> 00:22:12,960
several members of the group

586
00:22:17,029 --> 00:22:14,480
one of them appeared briefly to a

587
00:22:19,510 --> 00:22:17,039
physicist named mike russo and his

588
00:22:21,110 --> 00:22:19,520
terrified wife the two were lying around

589
00:22:23,350 --> 00:22:21,120
one morning when suddenly there was a

590
00:22:24,470 --> 00:22:23,360
giant bird staring at them from the foot

591
00:22:26,549 --> 00:22:24,480
of their bed

592
00:22:28,950 --> 00:22:26,559
after a few weeks of this russo and some

593
00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:28,960
of the others began seriously to wonder

594
00:22:32,950 --> 00:22:31,120
if they were losing their sanity

595
00:22:35,669 --> 00:22:32,960
other scientists and their families saw

596
00:22:38,149 --> 00:22:35,679
orbs and black shadowy forms in their

597
00:22:40,470 --> 00:22:38,159
homes unquote

598
00:22:42,310 --> 00:22:40,480
so again fascinating just to draw your

599
00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:42,320
attention to what was going on here

600
00:22:47,350 --> 00:22:44,320
these were straight-laced scientists who

601
00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:47,360
were hired because of their expertise

602
00:22:51,029 --> 00:22:49,200
to document what uri geller was

603
00:22:54,070 --> 00:22:51,039
attempting to do in terms of

604
00:22:56,230 --> 00:22:54,080
demonstrating psi capacity that's it

605
00:22:59,190 --> 00:22:56,240
that was their only connection

606
00:23:02,230 --> 00:22:59,200
but just by the fact that uri geller was

607
00:23:05,190 --> 00:23:02,240
engaging in psi phenomena using these

608
00:23:07,190 --> 00:23:05,200
capacities seemed to open up something

609
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:07,200
that caused the same kind of hitchhiker

610
00:23:11,270 --> 00:23:09,120
effect and then these straight-laced

611
00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:11,280
scientists began to experience very

612
00:23:15,669 --> 00:23:13,440
strange things including almost

613
00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:15,679
comically like as mentioned here a

614
00:23:20,789 --> 00:23:18,080
stereotypical flying saucer even though

615
00:23:23,270 --> 00:23:20,799
this had nothing to do with ufos per se

616
00:23:25,909 --> 00:23:23,280
in the first place and then also things

617
00:23:28,630 --> 00:23:25,919
like ecstatic animals from shamanic lore

618
00:23:31,590 --> 00:23:28,640
like raven-like birds huge birds

619
00:23:33,430 --> 00:23:31,600
very very interesting again think back

620
00:23:36,070 --> 00:23:33,440
to all of the details we've discussed

621
00:23:38,149 --> 00:23:36,080
and ask yourself what kind of reality

622
00:23:40,470 --> 00:23:38,159
would be such that these kind of things

623
00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:40,480
could take place

624
00:23:45,029 --> 00:23:42,720
now when one steps back and asks the

625
00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:45,039
question how is it possible that this

626
00:23:49,510 --> 00:23:47,120
phenomena these kinds of experiences

627
00:23:52,789 --> 00:23:49,520
spread from person to person even when

628
00:23:55,029 --> 00:23:52,799
no actual physical contact happens the

629
00:23:57,830 --> 00:23:55,039
question arises how does this happen

630
00:23:59,990 --> 00:23:57,840
what is the means of this kind of spread

631
00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:00,000
and here kell here brings up the issue

632
00:24:05,430 --> 00:24:03,120
of an infectious agent model

633
00:24:08,230 --> 00:24:05,440
quoting again from the article quote

634
00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:08,240
during 2020 and 2021 everyone in the

635
00:24:13,430 --> 00:24:10,240
world became familiar with the jargon of

636
00:24:15,669 --> 00:24:13,440
coronavirus infectious disease modeling

637
00:24:18,230 --> 00:24:15,679
after thousands of newspaper tv and

638
00:24:21,510 --> 00:24:18,240
digital media reports detailed the first

639
00:24:24,470 --> 00:24:21,520
covet 19 index cases in washington state

640
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:24,480
wuhan california and new york the

641
00:24:28,789 --> 00:24:26,559
concept of an index case for an

642
00:24:29,909 --> 00:24:28,799
infectious disease became familiar to

643
00:24:32,470 --> 00:24:29,919
everyone

644
00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:32,480
just as the wuhan institute of virology

645
00:24:37,510 --> 00:24:34,720
or the wet markets in china may have

646
00:24:39,430 --> 00:24:37,520
been the source of the covet 19 outbreak

647
00:24:42,230 --> 00:24:39,440
could skinwalker ranch be the source of

648
00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:42,240
an infectious agent of some kind

649
00:24:46,310 --> 00:24:44,320
the experiences of axelrod and others

650
00:24:48,950 --> 00:24:46,320
have led me to consider an infectious

651
00:24:51,350 --> 00:24:48,960
disease model to try to shed some light

652
00:24:53,430 --> 00:24:51,360
on the phenomena as they bore striking

653
00:24:57,029 --> 00:24:53,440
resemblance to the transmission of an

654
00:24:59,909 --> 00:24:57,039
infectious agent between individuals

655
00:25:02,310 --> 00:24:59,919
the symptoms of the infection comprise

656
00:25:04,390 --> 00:25:02,320
the eruption of poltergeist and other

657
00:25:06,390 --> 00:25:04,400
paranormal events in the immediate

658
00:25:07,669 --> 00:25:06,400
environment of the newly infected

659
00:25:10,070 --> 00:25:07,679
individual

660
00:25:12,950 --> 00:25:10,080
utilizing this terminology axelrod was

661
00:25:14,950 --> 00:25:12,960
the index case who was first infected on

662
00:25:17,830 --> 00:25:14,960
skinwalker ranch and carried the

663
00:25:20,390 --> 00:25:17,840
infectious agent 2 000 miles home to

664
00:25:22,870 --> 00:25:20,400
virginia with him within a few days or

665
00:25:25,830 --> 00:25:22,880
weeks the agent had spread from axelrod

666
00:25:27,669 --> 00:25:25,840
to his wife and both his teenage sons

667
00:25:30,310 --> 00:25:27,679
and all three began experiencing a

668
00:25:32,710 --> 00:25:30,320
bewildering diversity of anomalies in

669
00:25:34,470 --> 00:25:32,720
their home within a few more weeks the

670
00:25:36,789 --> 00:25:34,480
infectious agent had spread to the

671
00:25:37,669 --> 00:25:36,799
neighborhood and infected two teenage

672
00:25:39,909 --> 00:25:37,679
friends

673
00:25:42,950 --> 00:25:39,919
probably at school who lived within a

674
00:25:44,630 --> 00:25:42,960
couple of miles of the axle rod home it

675
00:25:46,870 --> 00:25:44,640
should be noted that the symptoms of

676
00:25:49,430 --> 00:25:46,880
infection from skin walker ranch are not

677
00:25:52,710 --> 00:25:49,440
respiratory distress or death as with

678
00:25:54,950 --> 00:25:52,720
cobot 19 but rather profoundly altered

679
00:25:56,870 --> 00:25:54,960
perceptual environments

680
00:25:59,350 --> 00:25:56,880
unquote

681
00:26:01,510 --> 00:25:59,360
now before we move on to a section where

682
00:26:03,590 --> 00:26:01,520
kelleher outlines possibilities for

683
00:26:05,830 --> 00:26:03,600
future research we should note again

684
00:26:08,549 --> 00:26:05,840
that this more recent description of a

685
00:26:10,549 --> 00:26:08,559
kind of contagion model still tends to

686
00:26:11,350 --> 00:26:10,559
follow a kind of physicalist paradigm

687
00:26:13,029 --> 00:26:11,360
that

688
00:26:14,950 --> 00:26:13,039
basically this is being physically

689
00:26:16,950 --> 00:26:14,960
transmitted when people are in the

690
00:26:18,630 --> 00:26:16,960
vicinity of someone who's been infected

691
00:26:21,350 --> 00:26:18,640
by this the same way that would happen

692
00:26:22,710 --> 00:26:21,360
with a virus like covet 19.

693
00:26:24,950 --> 00:26:22,720
again i don't think that's actually the

694
00:26:27,029 --> 00:26:24,960
best analogy for what's going on here

695
00:26:29,590 --> 00:26:27,039
and even kelleher gets to that when he

696
00:26:31,830 --> 00:26:29,600
talks about the fundamental nature of

697
00:26:33,909 --> 00:26:31,840
consciousness as perhaps being an

698
00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:33,919
explanatory mechanism for what we see

699
00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:35,440
going on here

700
00:26:39,590 --> 00:26:37,520
but before we get to that let's first

701
00:26:42,470 --> 00:26:39,600
discuss something he talks about in a

702
00:26:43,350 --> 00:26:42,480
section called future research

703
00:26:45,750 --> 00:26:43,360
quote

704
00:26:47,269 --> 00:26:45,760
following the june 25th 2021

705
00:26:49,269 --> 00:26:47,279
announcement by the office of the

706
00:26:51,830 --> 00:26:49,279
director of national intelligence that

707
00:26:53,750 --> 00:26:51,840
ufos are real and may constitute an air

708
00:26:55,269 --> 00:26:53,760
safety threat and even a national

709
00:26:57,269 --> 00:26:55,279
security problem

710
00:26:59,430 --> 00:26:57,279
much public interest has been focused on

711
00:27:02,710 --> 00:26:59,440
what a future program investigating both

712
00:27:04,789 --> 00:27:02,720
ufo performance and ufo effects on human

713
00:27:06,549 --> 00:27:04,799
beings might look like

714
00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:06,559
during such a study if additional

715
00:27:10,950 --> 00:27:08,720
examples of a hitchhiker effect were

716
00:27:13,110 --> 00:27:10,960
discovered several paths for future

717
00:27:14,789 --> 00:27:13,120
research could be explored

718
00:27:16,070 --> 00:27:14,799
and now jumping ahead just a little bit

719
00:27:18,549 --> 00:27:16,080
in that section

720
00:27:21,029 --> 00:27:18,559
quote future research could also allow

721
00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:21,039
us to test various hypotheses on the

722
00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:23,360
mechanism involved in the hitchhiker

723
00:27:27,430 --> 00:27:25,760
effect the common denominator with

724
00:27:29,430 --> 00:27:27,440
people who experience the effects of

725
00:27:31,990 --> 00:27:29,440
bringing something home is not

726
00:27:34,470 --> 00:27:32,000
respiratory distress hemorrhagic fever

727
00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:34,480
or other symptoms of viral infection

728
00:27:38,389 --> 00:27:36,640
alterations in a person's perceptual

729
00:27:40,310 --> 00:27:38,399
environment appears to be the most

730
00:27:42,389 --> 00:27:40,320
common manifestation

731
00:27:44,149 --> 00:27:42,399
symptoms include waking up with black

732
00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:44,159
shadow humanoids standing over their

733
00:27:48,789 --> 00:27:46,559
beds various types of poltergeist

734
00:27:51,350 --> 00:27:48,799
activity colored orbs flying through

735
00:27:53,909 --> 00:27:51,360
people's bedrooms and homes at night

736
00:27:56,230 --> 00:27:53,919
apparitions of dead children or adults

737
00:27:59,190 --> 00:27:56,240
unexplained loud noises around the house

738
00:28:00,630 --> 00:27:59,200
and much more unquote

739
00:28:02,630 --> 00:28:00,640
and again before we move on to the

740
00:28:04,789 --> 00:28:02,640
section where he discusses consciousness

741
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:04,799
and the role it may play let me just

742
00:28:08,230 --> 00:28:06,320
point out again that while he talks

743
00:28:10,630 --> 00:28:08,240
about the perceptual environment is

744
00:28:12,950 --> 00:28:10,640
what's changed for people who suffer

745
00:28:14,549 --> 00:28:12,960
from this kind of hitchhiker effect we

746
00:28:16,389 --> 00:28:14,559
shouldn't assume this means that they're

747
00:28:18,549 --> 00:28:16,399
just seeing something like something's

748
00:28:19,830 --> 00:28:18,559
being projected over top of actual

749
00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:19,840
reality and they're seeing something

750
00:28:23,510 --> 00:28:21,520
like hallucinations

751
00:28:26,870 --> 00:28:23,520
no what we see here is actually people

752
00:28:28,870 --> 00:28:26,880
having their reality changed that's what

753
00:28:31,510 --> 00:28:28,880
seems to be actually going on here that

754
00:28:33,990 --> 00:28:31,520
reality itself is somehow changed once

755
00:28:36,549 --> 00:28:34,000
you've been infected by this so-called

756
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:36,559
hitchhiker phenomenon so again that

757
00:28:41,909 --> 00:28:38,880
raises the question what therefore does

758
00:28:45,269 --> 00:28:41,919
that say about reality itself the very

759
00:28:47,830 --> 00:28:45,279
fabric of what is and he gets to that in

760
00:28:50,149 --> 00:28:47,840
a very teasing way in this discussion of

761
00:28:51,990 --> 00:28:50,159
consciousness in the very next section

762
00:28:54,549 --> 00:28:52,000
moving now to that final section of the

763
00:28:55,750 --> 00:28:54,559
article titled the role of consciousness

764
00:28:57,909 --> 00:28:55,760
quote

765
00:29:00,310 --> 00:28:57,919
alterations in human perception as a

766
00:29:01,990 --> 00:29:00,320
result of being infected suggest that

767
00:29:04,470 --> 00:29:02,000
some of the new models of human

768
00:29:06,950 --> 00:29:04,480
consciousness proposed by such

769
00:29:09,750 --> 00:29:06,960
luminaries as philosopher computer

770
00:29:11,909 --> 00:29:09,760
scientist bernardo castro university of

771
00:29:12,950 --> 00:29:11,919
california irvine professor donald

772
00:29:14,950 --> 00:29:12,960
hoffman

773
00:29:14,950 --> 00:29:15,909
rice university professor jeffrey

774
00:29:20,789 --> 00:29:18,710
microchip inventor federico fagan

775
00:29:23,510 --> 00:29:20,799
university of virginia professor edward

776
00:29:27,029 --> 00:29:23,520
kelly and stem cell biologist robert

777
00:29:29,590 --> 00:29:27,039
lanza may be relevant the proposal that

778
00:29:32,310 --> 00:29:29,600
consciousness is prime and actually

779
00:29:34,870 --> 00:29:32,320
undergirds physical reality and is not

780
00:29:37,669 --> 00:29:34,880
emergent from neurochemical trafficking

781
00:29:38,950 --> 00:29:37,679
in the brain is fundamental to this new

782
00:29:40,870 --> 00:29:38,960
viewpoint

783
00:29:43,269 --> 00:29:40,880
one implication of the new perspective

784
00:29:45,830 --> 00:29:43,279
on human consciousness is that the brain

785
00:29:48,470 --> 00:29:45,840
may act as a filter of consciousness as

786
00:29:50,630 --> 00:29:48,480
proposed by aldous huxley

787
00:29:53,269 --> 00:29:50,640
bernardo castro emphasizes that

788
00:29:55,669 --> 00:29:53,279
psychedelics decrease brain activity

789
00:29:58,230 --> 00:29:55,679
while the individual paradoxically

790
00:30:01,669 --> 00:29:58,240
undergoes extremely intense perceptual

791
00:30:03,510 --> 00:30:01,679
activity he writes quote in all cases

792
00:30:06,389 --> 00:30:03,520
the physiological effect of the

793
00:30:08,710 --> 00:30:06,399
psychedelic is to reduce brain activity

794
00:30:11,110 --> 00:30:08,720
particularly in the so-called default

795
00:30:14,149 --> 00:30:11,120
mode network which is correlated with

796
00:30:16,310 --> 00:30:14,159
our ego or sense of individual identity

797
00:30:18,310 --> 00:30:16,320
the phenomenological effect on the other

798
00:30:20,710 --> 00:30:18,320
hand is one of the richest and most

799
00:30:23,190 --> 00:30:20,720
intense experiences a human being can

800
00:30:25,190 --> 00:30:23,200
possibly have if one's brain is

801
00:30:26,389 --> 00:30:25,200
effectively going to sleep during those

802
00:30:29,430 --> 00:30:26,399
experiences

803
00:30:31,669 --> 00:30:29,440
from

804
00:30:34,310 --> 00:30:31,679
castrop's question is a good one and

805
00:30:36,950 --> 00:30:34,320
measurable brain alterations including

806
00:30:38,710 --> 00:30:36,960
quiescence may be one investigative

807
00:30:41,190 --> 00:30:38,720
readout for looking at hitchhiker

808
00:30:43,590 --> 00:30:41,200
effects on the human brain as part of a

809
00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:43,600
future ufo program

810
00:30:47,110 --> 00:30:45,520
unquote

811
00:30:49,350 --> 00:30:47,120
now i'd like to stop for a moment there

812
00:30:51,110 --> 00:30:49,360
and highlight what bernardo castro is

813
00:30:53,110 --> 00:30:51,120
saying there because i've experienced

814
00:30:55,190 --> 00:30:53,120
this personally and i mentioned this in

815
00:30:57,509 --> 00:30:55,200
an episode of liminal frames but i'd

816
00:30:59,029 --> 00:30:57,519
like to mention it again here in case

817
00:31:01,350 --> 00:30:59,039
that point has not been heard by

818
00:31:03,110 --> 00:31:01,360
everyone in the audience here

819
00:31:05,269 --> 00:31:03,120
what castrop is pointing out is that

820
00:31:08,230 --> 00:31:05,279
according to the physicalist model the

821
00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:08,240
brain manufactures our consciousness

822
00:31:13,430 --> 00:31:10,320
everything we experience is an epi

823
00:31:15,909 --> 00:31:13,440
phenomenon of brain activity so

824
00:31:18,070 --> 00:31:15,919
therefore castrop asks if that's the

825
00:31:20,310 --> 00:31:18,080
case then why is it that when we take

826
00:31:22,630 --> 00:31:20,320
psychedelics and the metabolic rate of

827
00:31:24,789 --> 00:31:22,640
the brain decreases greatly so it looks

828
00:31:26,870 --> 00:31:24,799
like basically nothing's going on

829
00:31:28,950 --> 00:31:26,880
neurochemically in the brain

830
00:31:31,190 --> 00:31:28,960
why is it that correspondingly that's

831
00:31:34,470 --> 00:31:31,200
exactly when human beings have their

832
00:31:37,909 --> 00:31:34,480
most mind-blowing expansive

833
00:31:39,750 --> 00:31:37,919
rich experiences in consciousness

834
00:31:41,830 --> 00:31:39,760
this should not happen according to a

835
00:31:43,430 --> 00:31:41,840
physicalist model let's make that very

836
00:31:45,509 --> 00:31:43,440
very clear

837
00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:45,519
and the casualties for the physicalist

838
00:31:50,870 --> 00:31:48,480
model are mounting over time this is

839
00:31:53,669 --> 00:31:50,880
just one of many data points that are

840
00:31:56,310 --> 00:31:53,679
strikes against the physicalist model so

841
00:31:58,710 --> 00:31:56,320
therefore the question should be posed

842
00:32:01,590 --> 00:31:58,720
this being the case what model of

843
00:32:03,430 --> 00:32:01,600
reality can make sense of these kinds of

844
00:32:05,590 --> 00:32:03,440
data points that are coming out of the

845
00:32:08,470 --> 00:32:05,600
neuroscience of consciousness quantum

846
00:32:11,350 --> 00:32:08,480
mechanics the ufo phenomenon and general

847
00:32:13,029 --> 00:32:11,360
paranormality etc

848
00:32:15,590 --> 00:32:13,039
to offer what i think is actually the

849
00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:15,600
most compelling possibility i would like

850
00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:17,600
to turn to a couple quotes by the man we

851
00:32:20,870 --> 00:32:18,960
just discussed or that was just

852
00:32:23,509 --> 00:32:20,880
referenced by kelleher and that is

853
00:32:26,789 --> 00:32:23,519
bernardo castro who's a philosopher and

854
00:32:28,389 --> 00:32:26,799
computer scientist from the netherlands

855
00:32:31,190 --> 00:32:28,399
first off we should point out that

856
00:32:33,590 --> 00:32:31,200
castrip began as a hardcore materialist

857
00:32:35,990 --> 00:32:33,600
a physicalist to the nth degree

858
00:32:38,870 --> 00:32:36,000
and for the record he began his career

859
00:32:40,230 --> 00:32:38,880
working on the large hadron collider at

860
00:32:41,830 --> 00:32:40,240
cern

861
00:32:43,269 --> 00:32:41,840
and castro believed that all

862
00:32:46,149 --> 00:32:43,279
consciousness really was was an

863
00:32:47,909 --> 00:32:46,159
epiphenomenon of the physical brain and

864
00:32:49,909 --> 00:32:47,919
that when his brain died he assumed he

865
00:32:51,909 --> 00:32:49,919
was kaput as well he would have no

866
00:32:53,830 --> 00:32:51,919
awareness beyond that

867
00:32:56,389 --> 00:32:53,840
since then he's done remarkable work

868
00:32:57,909 --> 00:32:56,399
looking into this both philosophically

869
00:33:00,549 --> 00:32:57,919
and in terms of our understanding of

870
00:33:02,870 --> 00:33:00,559
physics and consciousness and whatnot

871
00:33:05,269 --> 00:33:02,880
and he's come to conclude that idealism

872
00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:05,279
this idea that mind stuff is what

873
00:33:10,870 --> 00:33:07,840
reality is actually ultimately composed

874
00:33:13,430 --> 00:33:10,880
of is the best most explanatory powerful

875
00:33:15,509 --> 00:33:13,440
model we can come up with

876
00:33:18,149 --> 00:33:15,519
and i'd like to offer a couple of quotes

877
00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:18,159
from castro as we draw this episode to a

878
00:33:22,389 --> 00:33:19,600
close

879
00:33:24,870 --> 00:33:22,399
the first goes as follows quote the

880
00:33:26,950 --> 00:33:24,880
brain isn't the cause of experience for

881
00:33:29,990 --> 00:33:26,960
the same reason that lightning isn't the

882
00:33:31,909 --> 00:33:30,000
cause of atmospheric electric discharge

883
00:33:33,190 --> 00:33:31,919
or that flames aren't the cause of

884
00:33:35,750 --> 00:33:33,200
combustion

885
00:33:38,470 --> 00:33:35,760
just as flames are but the image of the

886
00:33:40,870 --> 00:33:38,480
process of combustion the body brain

887
00:33:43,669 --> 00:33:40,880
system is but the image of localized

888
00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:43,679
experience in the stream of universal

889
00:33:46,230 --> 00:33:44,960
consciousness

890
00:33:47,830 --> 00:33:46,240
unquote

891
00:33:50,070 --> 00:33:47,840
and then one final quote that will

892
00:33:52,710 --> 00:33:50,080
harken back to the episode i did on

893
00:33:55,110 --> 00:33:52,720
donald hoffman's work quote

894
00:33:57,830 --> 00:33:55,120
evolution has provided each of us with a

895
00:34:00,310 --> 00:33:57,840
dashboard of dials but we don't have a

896
00:34:03,269 --> 00:34:00,320
window to look directly at what is out

897
00:34:05,669 --> 00:34:03,279
there all we have are the dials

898
00:34:07,909 --> 00:34:05,679
the error we make is in mistaking the

899
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:07,919
dials for the external environment

900
00:34:13,430 --> 00:34:10,800
itself unquote

901
00:34:16,310 --> 00:34:13,440
and so the main takeaway here is that if

902
00:34:18,629 --> 00:34:16,320
consciousness is actually primary if

903
00:34:21,750 --> 00:34:18,639
consciousness is the fundamental bedrock

904
00:34:24,470 --> 00:34:21,760
of reality from which notions like

905
00:34:26,310 --> 00:34:24,480
matter and energy arise

906
00:34:28,149 --> 00:34:26,320
then we should not be surprised that

907
00:34:30,470 --> 00:34:28,159
people can experience something like the

908
00:34:33,430 --> 00:34:30,480
hitchhiker effect and then have their

909
00:34:35,270 --> 00:34:33,440
actual physical reality change

910
00:34:38,629 --> 00:34:35,280
because what it suggests is that these

911
00:34:41,270 --> 00:34:38,639
entities whatever they are are actually

912
00:34:43,909 --> 00:34:41,280
employing their methods at that level of

913
00:34:46,069 --> 00:34:43,919
consciousness at the bedrock level and

914
00:34:49,190 --> 00:34:46,079
this effectively rewrites what we

915
00:34:52,550 --> 00:34:49,200
perceive as physical reality which is an

916
00:34:55,589 --> 00:34:52,560
epiphenomenon of consciousness and not

917
00:34:58,230 --> 00:34:55,599
the other way around

918
00:35:00,069 --> 00:34:58,240
and on that note we've come to the close

919
00:35:02,390 --> 00:35:00,079
of another edition of the point of

920
00:35:04,630 --> 00:35:02,400
convergence podcast if you'd like to

921
00:35:07,270 --> 00:35:04,640
support this podcast you can do so by

922
00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:07,280
going to patreon.com

923
00:35:11,430 --> 00:35:09,200
exo academian

924
00:35:13,349 --> 00:35:11,440
but until next time friends from deep

925
00:35:14,550 --> 00:35:13,359
within the blue ridge mountains of north